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Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane?
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THRASHCRAZED



Joined: 16 Feb 2002
Posts: 397
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:28 pm    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

This subject doesn't have anything to do with the hardboard or why it's here, but we are all human with emotions that tend to be riled up with stuff like what this lady did and what a local guy in my county that killed that 7 year old girl recently. Anybody that has kids of their own is absolutely apalled with the murder of young ones. Since I do have a young son, my 2 cents says I hope the bitch frys.
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General Zod



Joined: 24 Jan 2001
Posts: 2519
Location: Krypton

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:40 pm    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

I would agree with Rockangel.

GZ
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General Zod



Joined: 24 Jan 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:46 pm    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

Subtraction-

Let's say, for the sake of arguement, that the psychiatrists for both the DA and the defense agree that the woman is completely insane. I have two questions for you:

1 - What do you think should be done with her in the short term?

2 - Assuming that you believe that she should undergo intense psychiatric treatment, what should be done with her if that treatment was to be sucessful, and she was pronounced completey sane, and ready to rejoin society?

Please understand that I am not trying to bait you, I'm merely curious as to your view on this (as it is obviously different from my own). Thanks.

GZ
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Templar



Joined: 17 Oct 1999
Posts: 592
Location: the planet of the apes

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 7:54 pm    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

She had mental problems, but the prosecution did an excellent job of proving that she knew right from wrong. She waited until her husband left the house, then methodically killed 5 of her children, then called her husband and told him she'd done something terrible. She even admitted in court that she knew it was wrong, but she did it anyway to "save" her children. Mental illness does not always mean that one can't distinguish between right and wrong. I also think her husband should be charged with child endangerment, at the very least -- what a selfish, irresponsible a$$hole.
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Mijarra



Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 1564
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 8:25 pm    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

*sigh* I just made several attempts to add something to this post but I erased everything. The only conclusion I have come to is that this topic is way too heavy for this forum, or at least for me at this time. I personally get very angry almost to the point of rage when people are murdered or raped or suffer such awful indignities at the hands of others. I personally have absolute zero sympathy for ANYONE that commits these crimes on other human, whether they are sane, metally ill, grew up in a bad neighborhood, moms didn't hug them enough...I don't care. The facts are that people are dead b/c of this woman and no amount of hand holding or bleeding heart psychiatric mumbo jumbo can bring them back. Somebody has to pay. So I better stop there, I can feel my teeth clenching as I type.

On the positive side, Donnie Bonaducci just kicked the crap out of the guy from the Brady Bunch. LOL!
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Subtraction



Joined: 10 Feb 2001
Posts: 631
Location: Corpus Christi, TX

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 10:17 pm    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

- I, at this point, do not know what to do about Andrea Yates

- I am not a consequentialist, which seems to be the common view in regards to cases such as this

- I, at this point in my life, cannot commit to a statement that says we should put someone to death

- I do not believe that someone should die due to something that is beyond their control (i.e. a person who does not know right from wrong, is mentally retarded, born mentally retarded)

- I am in no way trying to lessen the tragedy of the killing of these children or any other children and for that matter any human being regardless of age

-nuclear_x, you are not making sense, it is not clear to what extent you believe in equal rights.

-this general rule that you give about nature is not a good one. First of all let's take a look at lions. The supposed king of the jungle does not as you say provide. Female lions do all the hunting and also they do take care of the young (which goes along with your argument) while all the while the male lion sits around and basically passes on his genes. In the case of birds, most male birds mate with the female and then they are done with thier job. So as far as providing, nature shows us that what the male does is pretty much provide sperm, but of course not in all cases. But my real point is you cannot reduce society down to nature, becuase rape and murder happens in nature, so does this make it right? Going back to lions, a male lion will kill the offspring that does not belong to him. Does this make it right? Should we act in this way?

-Your statement about women getting of thier high horse is a bit disturbing. It seems to me that you might think that it is only because of women that our country is not better off. And what about the men that leave women with children and help in no way. I am sure you would agree that they are at fault too for this country not being better off.

-How could you possibly know that women have forgotten to raise children? I suppose you think it is our instinct to raise them? When you say you are against groups (feminism, NOW) telling women what to think, to me you imply that women don't need to know anything except that they should take care of children. In the situation of women, there was a long period of oppression, women where taught that they were simple "providers" and this was pounded into thier minds. This is why feminism and groups like NOW have come about. NOW stands for the National Organization for Women. NOW is dedicated to making legal, political, social and economic change in our society in order to achieve our goal, which is to eliminate sexism and end all oppression. I don't see anything wrong with acheiving this goal which they have put forth.

-Really my main point is that your argument about women is unclear, your position on equal rights bounces around and I just don't understand your position on women.

- I do agree however that women, in cases such as this or any murder case, should not be given leniency. It is not something that I or any person for equal treatment of women complain about. Also I am not going to be leniant on her because she is a woman, I mean, if it really is this mental disorder that caused that, it is not a woman's fault that only she can have this disorder and not a man.

- I look at it this way, Andrea Yates is a person (doesn't matter male or female) who killed people (doesn't matter child, adult). Something needs to be done, but I do not know exactly how to deal with it

-Lastly, if we had a one year old child (probably this child does not know the difference between right and wrong) and he has a loaded gun. Let's say that maybe he heard on TV the phrase "I am going to kill you". He then approaches his mother with a loaded gun, unaware of it's consequences, says " I am going to kill you" shoots the mother and she is killed. I have no doubt in my mind that most people would say that we should not sentnence this child to death (assuming the law allowed for this). Now if we have an adult, say 25, who is severely mentally retarded and has the capacity of the one year old, he does the same thing, should he be put to death? According to what some of you say, he should, because he is a danger to society I suppose. This is a consequentialist view, of which I am opposed. I put a great deal of weight on the intention of an act. I am merely defending my position on the question of execution, moral duty, etc., not the specific case of Andrea Yates...and yes I am very, very off topic. As if Andrea Yates where not off topic enough. I am allowing for you to say this to me.
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nuclear_x



Joined: 19 Feb 2000
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:04 am    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

I guess the jist of what I was saying is we have to many apolgists for criminal acts such as this and the way it was leaning in this case was she wasnt responsible for what she did and we have all these shrinks on tv wanting to give excuses mainly because she s a female and opining the view she had post pardom depression well how many women have this? and dont kill their offspring?
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Rockangel



Joined: 28 May 2000
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:12 am    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

Sorry subtraction, it was proven that she did know right from wrong. And even had she been insane in any way she and her family didn't take the advice of her own doctor a couple of years before NOT to have any more children because she suffered from post pardum(sp?) depression. All this proves is even if she had been proven insane she and her family are incapable of keeping her sane and on meds and to take good advice. So in the end she would become a danger again. So yes I do belive she should die. After all your last post is proof enough that we can't take humans down to the level of animals. We should eliminate the threats to our society. And I agree women who slaughter their children should at the very least be nutered serve time and register like sexual predetors do so they can NEVER have nor be near nor work with children ever again.

And you may call me insane for feeling this way, but as much as I love dogs I don't think a mad one that is a man killer should get to live out the rest of it's days in comfort. With the shadow of it possibly getting out to kill again hanging over all. People who are insane enough to murder with little or no remorse need to be permenatly removed as a threat. If someone in her family had locked her up when their doctors said she needed in patiant care 5 lives would have been saved!!!

Thats how I feel and I'm stickin to it.
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General Zod



Joined: 24 Jan 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2002 7:51 am    Post subject: Andrea Yates - Guilty or Insane? Reply with quote

quote:
Originally posted by Subtraction:
-Lastly, if we had a one year old child (probably this child does not know the difference between right and wrong) and he has a loaded gun. Let's say that maybe he heard on TV the phrase "I am going to kill you". He then approaches his mother with a loaded gun, unaware of it's consequences, says " I am going to kill you" shoots the mother and she is killed. I have no doubt in my mind that most people would say that we should not sentnence this child to death (assuming the law allowed for this). Now if we have an adult, say 25, who is severely mentally retarded and has the capacity of the one year old, he does the same thing, should he be put to death? According to what some of you say, he should, because he is a danger to society I suppose. This is a consequentialist view, of which I am opposed. I put a great deal of weight on the intention of an act. I am merely defending my position on the question of execution, moral duty, etc., not the specific case of Andrea Yates...and yes I am very, very off topic. As if Andrea Yates where not off topic enough. I am allowing for you to say this to me.

A well thought out and intelligent response. However, I would say that there is one flaw in your final analogy.

1 - The infant, not knowing what it was doing, would most likely grow up into a healthy human being, and would present no more of a danger to society than the average person. Of course, this is assuming that the child would have no memory of this incident, and would not be emotionally scarred by it.

2 - Andrea Yates, is a full grown adult. Regardless to what extent she knew what she was doing, she is clearly a danger to society.

Finally, the fact of the matter is, a jury found her sane. I would say, that if the same jury that found her sane also agrees to put her to death, you would have to think that they felt pretty confident in their own assessment of her sanity. To that end, if the jury decides in favor of lethal injection, I would agree with their decision.

GZ
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